Episode 308: Jen Gotch on How to Pivot Your Book Promotion in a Pandemic

Jen Gotch is one of those people who seems to stumble toward success. She's the first to admit that she figures everything out as she goes along—and it all seems to work out far better than it does for those with PowerPoints, MBAs and the rest. Case in point: band.do, the company she founded in 2008 with no business experience and which is now a beloved multimillion-dollar brand. Then there's her obsessive Instagram following and podcast that she built by being utterly herself—often sharing about her mental health struggles.

And the trend continued with her first book, The Upside of Being Down, which has been featured in People and The LA Times and recently hit The New York Times bestseller list.

While the release timing couldn't have been worse—we're talking days into shelter-in-place world shutdown—her attitude couldn't have been better. And although her book tour got canceled and plenty of plans were derailed, she was able to do a pivot that made her launch inarguably successful. 

In this episode, we discuss how the business lessons she's accumulated along the way served her when it came to planning her book launch—and how she learned some new ones as life changed.

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

→ You can get my 5 steps to creating a life-changing book

→ You can apply for an Authority Experience to have us create the concept and promotion plan for your authority-building book

→ You can apply for a call to work with Legacy Launch Pad (our publishing packages range from $7k-150k)

INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT:

Anna David:                  00:01                Thank you so much for doing this. It's thrilling.

Jen Gotch:                    00:04                You're welcome.

Anna David:                  00:07                So I have been following your journey and you know, so I knew your book was coming out, I saw what you were planning and then I saw basically it not happen as like the world fell part. Yes. Then I saw you become a New York Times best selling author. Right? And your [inaudible] thinks about it. So, I mean it's kind of an amazing story for anyone who's thinking about marketing a book to see like you can have all of these plans, they go totally awry, and look at the success you can have. So let's see, what was the actual release date in terms of when the world fell apart? Was it like that day?

Jen Gotch:                    00:46                No. So the release date was March 24th, I would say around March 16th, somewhere around there, I'd have to look was when we were like, I don't think this book tour is going to happen. Like at that point that was that was like the first thing. And then it sort of slowly dissolved after that. Because then all the book bookstores were closed, you know, it sort of just went into this thing. So it went from denial to like, maybe I'll do a book tour with no hugging to no one's going anywhere.

Anna David:                  01:30                And where were you planning to go? Your publisher had set this all up, right?

Jen Gotch:                    01:33                Yeah. So, actually Bando the company I founded had done part of it. So the, so the publisher did the first week and then we had another three weeks with Bando. So I was going everywhere really, like, you know, major cities, some cities that aren't major but have stores and Bando communities in them. Yeah.

Anna David:                  02:04                And the other thing that was really interesting, I think about your story is that you talked even to publishers or just agents about doing a book many, many years ago. And then it's like, Oh, and this is my time. So talk, talk to me about that. People had come to you wanting you to do a book?

Jen Gotch:                    02:20                Yes. And I, and, and I think like being able to recognize the appropriate time when there's like the least amount of resistance around anything is really important just in life, not, you know, not just for authors, but certainly within the context of your show. I think I always wanted to write a book. I never really saw how that would happen, just given where I ended up going professionally. And then, yeah, I think because of social media, you know, very early on I would get approached. And I just didn't see how, I mean without even knowing the enormity of the book writing process which I wholeheartedly underestimated. I just was so consumed with Bando that I didn't really see how I would do it. You know, we'd get in these discussions and nothing was clicking. And then I did a speaking engagement and the people that ran that the conference were like, we want to start publishing books and we would love for you to do one. And at that point I was like starting to feel like I wanted to do it. And I was going to write a business book which we worked on for a few months and it sort of just fell apart.

                                    03:36                And then my editor, who I ended up, Lauren Spiegel at Simon and Schuster gallery books she probably had started five years ago the conversation and then she would tap in every couple of years. And then the last time she tapped in I was the most open to it, you know, just as far as like where I was. I had less day to day responsibilities at Bando. And my friend Busi was writing a book at the time and she said something about her editor, Lauren, and I was like, Lauren Spiegel? She's like, yeah, I was like, that's the editor that's been calling me. And I was like, I think I took that as a sign that this was the time and just sort of went from there.

Anna David:                  04:27                And what was, okay, so you said undertaking the process was kind of more than you even anticipated. What exactly?

Jen Gotch:                    04:35                Well I wasn't first and foremost, I was not as good at it as I thought I was going to be, which is a common mistake for me. And it just consumed more brain space then I thought even though like hours writing per day were, you know, was maybe three but it didn't leave me the brain space to really do anything else effectively. And I think this is true for, especially for creative professionals, you can see the beginning and you can see the end really clearly and the middle part is a little murky, but you're just like, ah, that'll be the easy part. And that ends up being the part that has so many surprises. I mean the book ended up very similar to what I thought it would be. There wasn't like any quick things. So it was like I had my eye on the prize, but there was a lot in between. That was just surprising to me.

Anna David:                  05:39                And did you, how did it work with your editor? Did you write chapters and send her to get feedback? Did you just do the whole first draft?

Jen Gotch:                    05:47                So she was out on maternity leave for part of it. So I was sort of left to my own devices for quite some time actually. And when we shot the book cover, which was like years ago now, I hadn't written a word and I was just like, this feels really scary that they're paying for this whole photo shoot and I haven't done anything. And eventually I started to dig in and I realized pretty quickly that, like I said, it just was a lot harder for me than I thought. I just didn't understand how, you know, I can write an Instagram caption like, you know, there's no, I just pick up my phone and go, but like structurally understanding it. So, I actually ended up hiring a personal editor a couple months in because I didn't even realize that was a thing, you know, and my editor was sort of like, you need to do some writing and give me something once you have, you know, a little bit before first draft, it was like six chapters when I ended up doing it.

                                    07:01                But she really wasn't going to get heavy into the editing until there was a first draft. So yeah, so I had help. And then when I turned in the first six chapters Lauren didn't like them. There was a lot she liked about it, but there was a lot that she didn't, and I was like completely shocked because I haven't really been bad at something in so long and I really didn't understand the book writing process and like the way feedback was going to come in and that, you know, oftentimes an editor will be like, cut these 3000 words and if you've written about your life that you feel gutted. So, yeah. So, at that point was when I realized I was going to need even more help because I had written 100,000 words, but I only needed like 60, and they were just, I was writing like I was talking, I guess, which is, as you can see now by talking to me, not.

Anna David:                  08:13                I think you have come up with a thousand words already.

Jen Gotch:                    08:13                And, you know what I mean, just put me in front of a wall. So anyways, so then I ended up hiring another editor who was just like, knew what to do with this. Like it's almost, I liken it to like in my job as chief creative officer, like I'm the one with the ideas and all the law and we should do this and that, and then there's like a CEO that makes sense of all of that foolishness, and can actually extract the value. And so Rachel Bertschi who ended up coming on was just that for me. And she could remember what was in chapter two when I was telling the story again. And she's like, you're already told that story. So, yeah. So I mean, that's sort of the process. I eventually went out to the desert and sort of sequestered myself to finish the first draft and then once that was complete, then Lauren was very heavily involved in that.

Anna David:                  09:12                So interesting when you sort of talk about business comparable to writing. Okay. So I told you before we started recording that I just have, we have so many commonalities, same age, moved to LA at the same time. Suffer from anxiety therapy since I was 16 actually. And then we did the opposite in that I became a writer. Wrote my first book when I was 30, you know, I kept writing books and then realized like a year and a half ago, two years ago wait a minute, this business thing, I don't need to be broke. How interesting. And started a business and I've just completed my eighth book, which I'm calling a Bizwoir because it's a business book memoir. And your book is the closest thing I've ever read to a Bizwoir. So I just made the term up because it really is, there is a lot of business, there are business lessons woven throughout. That made your job as a writer? I can tell you that made your job harder?

Jen Gotch:                    10:11                Well, you know, it's funny, I wanted to write a, you know, having wanted to write a business book at one point and then really wanting to write a self help book. The memoir piece really came from my editor. And so going in, I had all of these topics that I wanted to cover and I had a podcast at the time and had covered a lot of those topics and was sort of all over the place. So, so I actually think the ability to sort of do it chronologically helped like weave the business piece in sort of seamlessly because it was just during a specific chunk of time that was at the forefront, you know? Same with like the mental health stuff. It was like really, although, you know, when you struggle it never fully goes away. But it was my twenties that really had me focused on that purely. So it actually didn't have all the things that were hard that wasn't as hard as you would think.

Anna David:                  11:16                Okay. So let's talk about, so you said it was, you shot the cover a long time ago. How long was it from Simon and Schuster buying the book to it coming out?

Jen Gotch:                    11:25                I would say almost two years. Yeah, it takes a long time. I, and you've probably, you know, maybe since we're similar, had a similar experience early on. When I signed the contract, I said to my agent, what's the fastest anyone's ever written a book? And she was like, I don't know, nine months. And I'm like, I'm going to do it in six. And then the fact that it actually took me, I mean I missed several due dates, like the book was supposed to come out last October and then this January and then obviously instead it really came out in a pandemic, which I think is the perfect time. But I'm a huge believer in timing. But yeah, it took me a lot longer than I thought. And just like with everything else, you know, you just see the end product and you're like, Oh, that seems quick and easy.

Anna David:                  12:18                Yeah. Yeah. I and so in terms you had the book tour plan, what else did you have planned for the launch?

Jen Gotch:                    12:26                I mean the book tour was the most major piece because it really was going to go for almost six weeks. You know, there was obviously a lot of marketing alongside that, but I really planned to be out of pocket for March and April. You know, I had really started early March. I was in New York starting the press tour and then I had a couple of speaking things lined up and then it was just going to be city to city, you know, different city every day.

Anna David:                  13:01                But also TV. I would imagine?

Jen Gotch:                    13:03                There was some, I think by the time that that was really coming together, it was already like, the timing was interesting because I feel like now people have their approach, you know, it's like we're all digitized. We're, you know, news is being broadcast from news anchors, living rooms. Like I think it's sorted. When it happened for me, people were just like, are we shut down? Are we not shut down? Like it was a very, those few weeks were like incredibly transitional in an effort to give hope to authors that are launching, coming up. Like I think there's at least, you know, people have sort of referenced out that we're going to be in our homes and they figured it out.

Anna David:                  13:51                And so let me ask you this, in terms of doing a book, do you, did you and have you seen it sort of launch you into a new aspect of your career? Did you want to do it for that reason?

Jen Gotch:                    14:08                I wanted to, the reason I wanted to do it outside of it being a childhood dream was I really felt like in sharing those stories and just being honest about stuff that is hard for a lot of people to just be honest or forthright about, I would help a lot of other people. And that wasn't a hunch. That was like, because of my podcast or because of my Instagram, it was just something I heard over and over again. And I thought like, what a, what an amazing opportunity to like, have a dream of mine come true while also fulfilling this other dream, which is to help people. So I, it felt more like a purpose thing than a career move. I mean, although I'm like, maybe I'm an author, like I'm already thinking about what I would write next and I wasn't expecting that. I was like thinking like it's a one and done thing and I would just continue on my path, but I feel like now who knows, you know?

Anna David:                  15:07                Yeah. I mean, and I mean, cause a lot of people I talk to will do a book specifically to raise their speaking [inaudible] five thousand to 20,000 or whatever. And you know, even though you are reaching a lot of people with the mental health message, you're reaching a hell of a lot more now. I mean, assuming speaking gigs still happen in our culture than that, I imagine that will happen.

Jen Gotch:                    15:33                Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I was speaking a lot before the book, well, not a lot, but I, you know, I was doing speaking. And then I sort of shut all that down to do the book. And then I was, I, I signed with Simon and Schuster have a speakers Bureau. So, I wasn't, we were like, again, those things were, the book wasn't launched yet, so it was like things were just starting to happen. And I think like, yeah, we're just going to be in a virtual space, but I wish I could say I was that strategic in my offering of the book of just, I think I am more of a driven by like my intuition and my gut where it pulls me and I don't often know why I'm doing something. I just know that it's the thing I feel like I need to be doing at that moment. So I'm not one that operates with like many goals and plans, but I'm just like, this is what it should be right now.

Anna David:                  16:35                Which is interesting too because you, you know, entrepreneur first, like did you use any of what you've learned through business to launch this book?

Jen Gotch:                    16:44                Oh, I used everything that I've learned through business, you know I mean pivoting is a huge part of business so you know, if you have a business so the, you know, having had that experience so many times or have things go wrong or timing get drastically off with a product launch or whatever. I mean obviously nothing can compare to this, but it was a muscle I had used before. So, and because you know what, a lot of the publicity and the marketing around the book was very much in conjunction with the team at Bando. Like it has been a major priority this year. So the whole team knew how to do that. So we were just like, okay, like we weren't going to dwell on what was lost. We were like, what do we do? You know? And I think for me personally, I understand the connection I have with my community on social media. So I knew very quickly like, this is going to be my outlet, this is going to be my only outlet really. So I need to get right with that, with being on my phone all the time, which is not how I ran my social media prior to that.

Anna David:                  17:58                And besides pivoting, what other business experience played into the launch?

Jen Gotch:                    18:05                Well certainly, I mean, certainly the cover of the book was, you know, they really let me creative direct that thing. We used all the talent that I use for Bando photo shoots to design the book and take the pictures and everything because, you know, I was basically like, we've been selling books, they've just been blank or they've been planners, you know, but like we understand book covers, you know. And so I certainly, you know, was going off of a lot of evidence that I had through Bando. I think just like communication, there's obviously the communication was really heightened between myself, Bando, our PR company, Simon at New Gallery Books, their whole marketing and PR company. And so I think like understanding how to not take people off of CC on emails, things that seem very, you know, like a tiny thing but can really disrupt the line of communication. You know, I think it was all those things. There's probably a lot of things that I just take for granted that I know that I'm not saying here. But I think most of all just having the experience of like being up ended in radical ways made it feel, you know, a lot of people are like, Oh my gosh, it must be devastated. And I was like, I really didn't. I w I was heartbroken for a day and then I was like, well, we're either going to do this. Let's see what we can come up with, you know?

Anna David:                  19:48                And how big a role would you say Instagram played?

Jen Gotch:                    19:52                Huge. I mean, it is the role, I mean, outside of obviously the joint PR efforts, I mean, these guys were champions. There was so much press, I mean, I got a spread in People magazine. I was like big coverage in the LA Times, like there was, there's so much coverage that that was amazing. But at the end of the day, like what I saw, the response immediately that I saw on Instagram was so overwhelming for me and more than I had seen any other time in my life. So I just, I was like, this is the place of energy and Bando obviously it's sort of the same thing. I mean, they have a much larger audience on Instagram than I do. And you know, we just heavily, leaned into that.

Anna David:                  20:46                And so People and LA Times and all of that was planned pre pandemic and shot.

Jen Gotch:                    20:50                Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

Anna David:                  20:52                And, it came out post or no, it came back?

Jen Gotch:                    20:54                It came out right before they both came out the week before the book was launching.

Anna David:                  20:59                And so, in terms of sort of, I don't know, doubling down on Instagram, what were their actual techniques or were you just kind of like, I'm going to post more, I'm going to post excerpts from the book, you know, stuff like that.

Jen Gotch:                    21:11                You know, here's my thing. I mean I did a gifting, a book gifting, which is like a great thing to do. And again, so there's, there's the thing I forgot. That's a huge thing for Bando. Like obviously for having a product launch, we will send things to celebrities that we've become friends with or just huge proponents of the brand. And so I sort of applied the same sensibility to the book, and we had made, you know, I made these hats and like we made some things, like some products that we were going to sell alongside the book. And so we did a gifting, which I was like terrified that UPS was going to shut down because I knew, you know, that would really help. So I think like that was a big strategy as far as like doing something that's a bit more pervasive that like it, you know, if I could, if people would end up talking about it, that that would obviously help spread the word. Like Instagram was going to be the way to spread the word, not just for mine. So I think like strategically, that was the first thing. I was very committed to not digging in on like numbers and goals.

                                    22:26                And you've got to say, buy the book five times a day. Like I just didn't, I felt really, really strongly, which is strange as a business person. But from the get go, they put me on one numbers email very early on and I was like, please take me off of all of this because it's not why I wrote the book. And my business mind will get so deep into that that I will lose sight of why I did this. And I really didn't want that. So launch week was interesting for me because I wanted to temper my responsibility to the publisher, but also not do anything I wasn't comfortable with. So I spent a lot of time, part of my Instagram strategy was meditating on what truly feels right and comfortable for me. And then I just, you know, I go by what my audience and community responds to. So I just tried things. I, you know, I, sometimes I read, sometimes I, you know, I, there were quotes that I felt were very resonant and use those. But mostly I just continued to be me because like, I mean, I have the luxury of the book is me and the topics of the book overnight became more relevant to more people, you know. So I got incredibly lucky that everything I would normally do just empowered all of that and without it feeling like I was pandering to, you know, I just didn't, I'm not comfortable with that ever.

                                    24:06                And I certainly didn't want to do it here. And I honestly like yeah, I mean, I guess it's a good book that people like, you know, they, I just watched people talk about it and share it and promote it without me asking or, you know, and so I guess if you were to apply that to a book that's not mine, you know, I do think it's important to decide what you as the author want to do and be relatively unwavering in that. I mean, you know, why you put your work out there, whatever the reason, it doesn't have to be the same reason as mine. You know, and you have an audience, whether it's you're still finding that audience or you know, you know, but it's like really plugging into that. And I think my strength through all of that was to not feel desperate, was to just completely let go and accept the situation and say, I have stood by my, you know, my purpose this entire time, whatever is going to happen. Like it's already written, not the book, but the path, you know, and I think if nothing else, that really helped my sanity. I don't know if that contributed or not. I have to, I'm a huge believer of those things contributing. But I think to not get caught up in like how you're going to grind on this book release, as hard as that sounds, I actually think really amazing things can happen that way.

Anna David:                  25:48                Yeah, I think absolutely. I think, you know, I had six miserable book releases because I tried to control what happened because I was comparing and despairing. And then I had one amazing one and it was the one I published myself because I just decided, yes, I was going to go with it. And that energy, your audience feels that energy. In desperate energy translates.

Jen Gotch:                    26:13                Well and certainly now is not the time for that. You know, I think people want to see others being passionate and resilient, you know, in a thoughtful way. But I have learned in life in general, the more you can let go, the more you open yourself up for opportunities that you didn't even know existed because you're so connected to just this one outcome. And it being specifically this way that you just completely lose sight to the like millions of other outcomes.

Anna David:                  26:46                That we can't conceive up. Yeah. Yeah. But will you actually walk me through what the gifting process was created products that had the book title on them and then figured out who you were giving them to?

Jen Gotch:                    26:58                Yes. Some, you know I mean it was mostly about getting the book in people's hands and obviously like I wanted to everyone's chagrin, write a note and then a description in each book. And I mean we, we sent out quite, I mean maybe it was like 80 or a hundred just based on like personal friends of mine, friends of our brand, you know, we did some research on like book influencers. And then yes, inside of it was sort of like a tiered system. Like we weren't sending products to everyone. You know, some people we knew would just be interested in the book, but I did, I made these hats that had the bright yellow hats that have the upside of being down the title on it. That I insisted that no one, everyone was like, no one's going to wear that. And then we sold out days and I was like, I told you. We made a t-shirt that is, celebrates the book, but it doesn't say the book's name. It's like it says something about like, I read a self help book and all I got was an increased level of self awareness and something else. Like it's sort of like a play on like my grandparents went to the keys and all I got was this, I'm horrible t-shirt. And then I don't think there was anything else in there.

                                    28:16                Oh. A zine we Bando made like a little zine for two for preorders, you know, a lot of times with preorders there'll be an incentive to preorder. So that was that. So yeah. And then you know, just put it together in a very creative way because we can't do anything simply at our company. And then just let it go from there. And again, I think it goes the same. You know, you have to apply the sensibility of your book and your community and you can reach out to PR agencies. You can mess, I mean, people message me all the time on Instagram to be like, can I send you my book? You know, now is certainly the time to start asking for those things, especially if it's people that you think it's going to resonate with. Like I certainly wasn't advocating for sending the book to people that I just felt like are not, they don't want to read it. You know, I think you have to be sensible.

Anna David:                  29:14                And did you, so somebody else, someone listening who would want to do that, would you just say you know, make a list of, you know, even if you don't know an influencer or whatever, maybe you know someone who does or whatever it is.

Jen Gotch:                    29:27                Yes. You absolutely know someone who knows someone who knows someone that there's just no way in this day and age. I mean, you can go on that influencer and see who they follow and see if it's an, you know, I mean, you can, you can get in there. And you can obviously, you know, speak to your publisher about that, but it, or you just ask them directly. And like I said, people ask me directly, I say yes or I say no. Depending on whether or not it's something that I think, you know will work, and know that for anyone that you're sending the book to, there's no obligation on there end to do anything with it. And I think for me, you know, the hope was someone's going to read it and feel compelled to share. And that's really all, I mean that's what book selling is all about, you know, I mean there's only so much you can do. I mean, obviously now we're more limited because people aren't just coming across the book in a store for the most part. But like you really are investing on people liking a much that they're going to tell someone to read it and like people are at home reading right now. So I mean, you could very well look at this as a great opportunity for people to discover your book. Not the worst time ever.

Anna David:                  30:45                I just saw a statistic this morning about some categories are up. Reading is up 500%.

Jen Gotch:                    30:51                Oh my gosh, I believe it. You know, I mean, I think there's a lot, I just think there's a lot that you can do. I haven't done that much, but I think there's virtual book clubs. There's, you know, you could do specific Instagram lives for it, virtual book tours, like because people are engaged with books in a way that they weren't, you know, we're running out of TV.

Anna David:                  31:20                I've seen that meme. I finished Netflix.

Jen Gotch:                    31:22                Oh my God, that's so funny. Yeah.

Anna David:                  31:26                No. Okay. And so let's talk about this New York Times best seller. So unexpected given the circumstances, right? I mean, based on your, it seemed like that. So what happened? You got a call from Simon and Schuster. How'd you find out?

Jen Gotch:                    31:36                Yeah, I, you know, certainly months and months ago I was like, man, that would be really cool. And everyone was on board with making that happen, you know? Obviously when the book tour got canceled and then bookstores closed, I was like, I don't think that that happens now. And so I really worked on getting right with that cause it's very rare that I would have my sights set on something that big and I wanted to make sure that going into that first week that wasn't my focus because I just, something good was going to happen regardless. And like when I first got the, when people started giving me feedback, I'm like, Oh, I've done the thing that I set out to do. The rest of it doesn't really matter. But of course it's still in the, in the back of my mind, but I didn't understand what day they announce it. So I actually thought it had been announced. Because the date they apply to it is so far in advance that I had like looked earlier in the week and I was like, Oh yeah, that's cool.

                                    32:45                And I told my dad and I was like, I'm sorry dad. I think my dad was more let down than I was. And so like the next day in the afternoon, my editor texted me and she was like, I have some good news, call me. And I was like, I wonder what the news could be like. It did not even occur to me. And I'm the type of person that can figure out who the murderer is in a movie in the first 30 seconds. So it was weird that my brain didn't be like maybe. And then when she got on the phone, she was like, let's loop Monica in, my agent, I was like, Oh, this must be really good news. I wonder, like, are there, maybe it's like some other list? And then she said Dr. Jamie, that's my dad. She's like, Dr. Jamie's going to be really happy because his daughter is a New York times bestselling author. And I was like, come again.

Anna David:                  33:38                What do you mean? You're like, do I have another sister?

Jen Gotch:                    33:41                I know, I know. I literally was like, okay. It's, I know, don't get shocked that that often. And I was just like, that is so cool. And I think the thing that made me the happiest is I knew that not everyone had gone through the spiritual practice of letting go of that. And I knew it was a goal for lots of people and I just was so excited to be able to have good news for like this huge team of people that really had a part in the book and whether it was shooting the cover or promoting it or packing up gift boxes while we're social distancing with masks on prior to anything even being a thing, you know, to be able to spread that news was like incredibly thrilling for me.

Anna David:                  34:32                And so, okay, so if you had to sum up with your top three tips for launching a book successfully, what would they be?

Jen Gotch:                    34:40                In the times of Corona?

Anna David:                  34:41                How about in the times of Corona and normally? These times will end allegedly.

Jen Gotch:                    34:48                Yes. Yes, yes. You know, I think, I feel like a lot of it could work for both. And I actually think some of it really starts at the beginning when you're writing the book and you're setting your intentions for the book, whether it be a novel and you just want to, you know, entertain people or it's a business book and you, you know, you want to share your knowledge of this particular type of business. I think having an intention, I had an intention for each chapter, that was my touchstone. And I think getting intimate with those intentions helps when it comes time to launch it. You know, I think if it's just like I've just turned out a book and it's a thing and you know, it's just this, that I'm selling. Not that, not that any author would feel that way, but it would be easy to start to look at it that way when it's basically the time that you're looking at the books performance.

                                    35:48                Right. So, I think getting your, getting your relationship to your work right is really important going in. And then I think it's like challenging yourself to be resourceful, which to me, the best way to do that is to eliminate the negative thinking and the, and focusing on the obstacles. And the things that aren't going to happen or didn't happen, and just let those clear a path for the things that can happen. And you know, you wrote a book, so there's no way that you don't have, I mean the resourcefulness that you need in writing a book and the ability to overcome obstacles may they be very quiet, personal obstacles. You've already done it, so you have to lean into that, you know? And then I think it's like beyond that, you know, I think it's just finding ways to connect with your audience. So, certainly pre pandemic that's getting out there, in whatever way shape or form.

                                    37:00                Like maybe you're not going on a book tour. And very early on for me, they were like, listen, there's no, no one's heard of you. There's no guarantee that there's going to be a book tour. It only started to happen when I got some initial good reviews and Bando was going to do it. But regardless, it was going to show up places like, whether I like rented a conference room or something. Like there was no way I was not going to engage with the reader. And so I think pivoting that digitally, although is a little awkward and painful and you know, we're fighting against technology. I think you'll find once you do it, it feels, I always feel great after I do one of those events going in. I'm like, I don't want to do this. And then afterwards I've done it. I've answered great questions and I'm paying attention to the questions that are asked of me so that I can incorporate that into my messaging, you know, so I really think it's just about clearing the things that are not going to serve you mentally and like leaving room to just stay in that like book zone, whatever that means for you.

                                    38:08                Like to me, I know those are broader, but given the fact that like my experience is so specific because I have like a large enough following on Instagram, I have a business that has a huge outreach. I have friends that are very influential, you know, I think, having that or not, I really tried to because I could have had all that and gotten my own way very quickly. I think like you got to stay out of your way and just know that there's always a way. I mean, certainly the fact that I got on that list, which I don't exactly know how, is proof that you know, that things can be done and hopefully you wrote a really great book, you know, that people are going to respond to. I mean, at the end of the day. And I think that's really the hope.

Anna David:                  39:03                Well this is fantastic. If people want the book, want to find you, Instagram is the best place to find you?

Jen Gotch:                    39:13                Yes. Yes.

Anna David:                  39:15                And it's just at Jen Gotch, in the place you'd think it would be. And then to get the book Amazon, Indie bound, like where's the best place for them to go?

Jen Gotch:                    39:28                I mean you all of those places, it actually, if you find yourself on my Instagram, there's a link in my bio that takes you to a site where you can choose where you want to buy books. I will say bookshop.org is a great place right now because they're helping by giving money to independent bookstores all over the country. Not that Amazon isn't great, but lots of people are just going to go there automatically. So I would say if you could find a place that's helping support brick and mortar bookstores, I mean, you can even contact your local bookstore. A lot of them are doing shipping and curbside delivery, but it's a great opportunity to buy a book and to help a business survive what's happening, you know, which is really important.

Anna David:                  40:14                Well, Jen, thank you so much. You guys, thank you so much for listening and yeah, I'll see you guys. I'll hear you guys. We'll talk next week. But Jen, thank you.

Jen Gotch:                    40:26                No, thank you for having me. And I hope some of this information was helpful.

Anna David:                  40:31                Oh, very much.